This is the real answer.

There are still, in the year 2023, Cobal developers graduating and getting hired to work on software.

My alma mater’s website runs on PHP.

The investment to flip even a microservice from one language to another is REALLY high, and most companies won’t pay unless there’s a significant pain point. They might not greenfield new projects with it anymore - but it will still be around effectively forever.

You’re not wrong. Having to figure out which element is borked in a yaml file is not great. And the implementation using yaml is all over the place, so even though tools do exist, they’re mediocre at best.

But, to be fair, Python has always done the same to me. As a fellow Neuro-spicy (and with a background in Java and C# and JavaScript), although the tools are better to point you in the right direction, significant white space (or indentations) are significant white space (or indentations).🤷‍♂️

.xml

Not sure whether fantastic troll or just no exposure to Python.

Either way…I’m here for it.

Is it just an extreme difficulty spike at this point that I have to trial-and-error through, or am I doing anything wrong?

I would say this is the biggest ‘aha’ moment for pretty much any developer - the first time you go from “I built this myself” to “A team built this and has supported it for 10+ years”. Not only can a team of three or four write a lot of code in ten years - they’ll optimize the Hell out of it. It’s ten years worth of edge case bugs, attempts to go faster, new features, etc. And it’s ‘bumpy’ because some of it was done by Dev A in their own style, some of it by Dev B, and so on. So you’ll find the most beautiful implementation for problems that you haven’t even considered before next to “Hello World” level implementation on something else.

The biggest thing you can do to help yourself out is make sure you’re clear on their branching strategy. When you’re the only one working on your code, it’s cool to push to main and occasionally break things and no harm no foul. But for a mature code base, a butterfly flapping its wings on that obscure constructor can have a blast radius of ‘okay, we have to rebase to the last stable commit’. When in doubt, ‘feature/(what you’re working on)’; but there might be more requirements than that, and it’s okay to ask. Some teams have feature requests tracked by number, on a kanban board, some put it in their username, etc.

Get the code pulled down, get it running on your machine (no small task), git checkout -b from wherever you’re pulling a branch off of (hopefully main or master, but again, it’s okay to ask) and then, figure out what the team’s requirements are for PRs. Do they have any testing environments, besides building it locally? Do they use linting or some other process to enforce style on PR reviews?

And then…don’t move a button. (Unless that button actually needs moved!) But try to mimic something that already exists. Create a second button in the new location. Steal from the codebase - implement something small in a way that has been done before. After the new button works - then remove the old button and see what happens.

The longer you deal with a codebase (and the attendant issues and feedback) the more you’ll feel yourself drawn to certain parts of the code that you’re familiar with.

Anyway, hope that advice helps! But most of all, don’t be scared. You will break things unintentionally. Your code will break things. If there’s not a process in place to catch it before it happens, that’s not your fault; that’s the senior dev/owners fault. But do try to limit the damage by using good branching strategies, only PRing after linting/testing, and otherwise following the rules.

The most compelling argument I heard is that WASM can’t manipulate the DOM and a lot of people don’t want to deal with gluing JS code to it, but aside from that

But other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?

You’ve gotten several other answers that are true and correct - the pain of implementation at this point is greater than the pain points that WASM solves. But this is also a non trivial one - most of what Javascript should be doing on a webpage is DOM manipulation.

At some point, WASM will either come out with a killer feature/killer app/use case that Javascript (and all the libraries/frameworks out there) hasn’t figured out how to handle, and it will establish a niche (besides “Javascript is sort of a dumb language let’s get rid of it”), and depending on the use case, you might see some of the 17.4 million (estimated) Javascript developers chuck it for…what? Rust? Kotlin? C? C#? But the switching costs are non-trivial - and frankly, especially if you still have to write Javascript in order to manipulate the DOM…well, what are we solving for?

If you’re writing a web app where one of the WASM languages gives you a real competitive advantage, I’d say that’s your use case right there. But since most web applications are basically strings of api calls looped together to dump data from the backend into a browser, it’s hard to picture wider adoption. I’ve been wrong before, though.

For a second I thought my github was going viral. ;)

This is a hilarious (and interesting!) read.

As a young(er) and slightly shittier web developer, before I really understood or could implement promises effectively (or when my code would ‘race’ and fail to recognize that the DOM hadn’t been loaded yet, so I couldn’t attach event listeners yet), I was known to implement a 2 second timeout.

It wasn’t pretty, but it worked!

Junior-ish DevOps with some blue/green experience.

It’s a very thorny problem, and I think your willingness to put up with the trade offs really would drive what patttern of architectecture.

Most of our blue/green deployment types use a unitary database behind the backend infra. There’s a lot ways to implement changes to the database (mostly done through scripting in the pipeline, we don’t typically use hibernate or other functionality that wants to control the schema more directly), and it avoids the pain of trying to manage consistency with multiple db instances. It helps that most of our databases are document types, so a lot of db changes can be implemented via flag. But I’ve seen some SQL implementations for table changes that lend themselves to blue/green - you just have to be very mindful to not Bork the current live app with what you’re doing in the background. It requires some planning - not just “shove the script into source control and fire the pipeline.”

If we were using SQL with a tightly integrated schema and/or we couldn’t feature flag, I think we’d have to monkey around with blue/greening the database as well. But consistency is non trivial, especially depending on what kind of app it is. And at least one time when a colleague set up a database stream between AWS accounts, he managed a circular dependency, which….well it wasn’t prod so it wasn’t a big deal, but it easily could’ve been. The data transfer fees are really what kills you. We managed to triple our Dev AWS bill prototyping some database streams at one point. Some of it undoubtedly was inefficient code, but point stands. With most blue/green infra, your actual costs are a lot less than 2x what a ‘unitary’ infra would cost, because most infra is pay for use and isn’t necessary except when you go to deploy new code anyway. But database consistency, at least when we tried it, was way MORE expensive than just 2x the cost of a unitary db, because of the compute and transfer fees.

I watched it in Vim, mostly because I don’t hate myself enough.

Not to spoil the ending either, but the nuclear device goes off because Oppenheimer smashes a bunch of keys and then finally remembers :wq.

Good advice already in this thread, but I’d add: ask smart questions, and when you’re engaging with a senior/mentor, build the picture for them. Everyone (including your mentor) expects you to have questions - they want you to ask questions, rather than just spinning your wheels for days and days. But they also want to know what you’ve tried and what you’ve looked at for resources. And despite appearances, they don’t always have the entire code base committed to memory. :)

For instance - suppose you’d been asked to, using the UI, return a piece of information from an external API and display it within the UI.

Bad question: “Hey, so I tried to integrate that third party API, but I’m not getting a return.”

“Okay - what kind of code are you getting? And what do the docs say?”

🤷‍♂️

Good question: “Hey, so I tried to integrate that third party API, but the return I’m getting from it is a 401 error. That should be an authentication error - but just in case, I pinged their server from our server, and they can reach each other. The documentation says that I have to use our key to get a JWT, but hitting the endpoint it says gives me a 401 error. I double checked our token; I’ve got the right one. And I’m sending it in the header as ‘auth’ like the documentation says. Where else should I look?”

“Oh yeah, that’s a tricky one - you have to encode the token before you send it; let me see if I’ve got an example where you can see what that looks like…”

One of the things that will happen over time, based on the questions that more senior SDEs ask, you’ll be able to ‘rubber ducky’ problem solve by asking yourself the questions that they would usually ask you, and it’s shockingly effective to help you sort your own problems out and clear your own blockers.

This was my first thought.

I do this for a living and it’s literally built into Linux.

Set their permissions carefully, ensure that the permission set does what you want (and not a bunch of stuff you don’t want), and keep on keeping on.

I hated everything about this comment, thanks.

This kind of implies that you’re crunching and then ‘recovering’. That may or may not be something you have any control over - there’s a lot that goes into creating an unsustainable ‘sprint’, and probably 99.8% of it is not related to actual developers or code - but ideally you would be using these ‘lulls’ to try to pull stuff out of the next crunch so maybe it won’t hurt so bad.

In reality, if I’m coming off of a bad crunch, I do anything I can do to avoid burnout. Sometimes that’s ‘fun’ backlog items or research for future features or something else I’m excited about, sometimes it’s studying for certs, sometimes it’s cutting slack (@cianuro@programming.dev watching Netflix feels familiar!). But again - whatever it takes to recharge my batteries and feel less bitter and shitty.

The most ‘sure’ sign that I’m coming off a crunch, though, is that I start reinforcing work/life boundaries. “It’s 5p and I’m logging off and I’m not going to think about work shit willingly until tomorrow.”

There’s probably a bit of a disparity, but it’s not nearly as much as you’re making it out to be.

In the US it depends greatly on the industry and company - I don’t know anybody making 200k-400k in software development (CTO? sure. Devs writing code? Nah), but I also don’t know or work with anybody that’s in FAANG world. Those are the companies paying $100k+ for a junior.

I live and work in a lower cost of living area, for a company that’s not ‘software first’ and our juniors come in between $50k-75K. And that’s not the lowest I’ve seen for junior engineers starting out.

That said - it’s also not unusual for mid-career folks to be in the $100-150k range, and seniors/leads moving up from there.

So with all that in mind - some of it is market forces (are there more devs and/or fewer dev jobs in Europe than in the US? Potentially less mobility?) but one of the bigger causes (I’d guess, anyway) is the lack of FANG type “Master of the Universe” companies. Part of the reason juniors and seniors command that kind of pay in the US is because the rates that the FANGs pay tend to ‘trickle down’. The average senior/mid career dev may not be interested (or capable!) of working at a FANG - but if the other people in their hiring pool are, they’re still going to command that kind of salary.

As a point of comparison - my understanding is that financial services is sort of the same thing. Most Euro bankers/stockbrokers/finance bro types are pretty heavily underpaid compared to their US counterparts. Some of that is regulatory, but a lot of it is that there are more higher paying jobs in the US, mostly at the big multinantional conglomerates you can think of off the top of your head (Goldman Sachs, Bank of America, Citibank, JP Morgan), and that tends to drag the scale up throughout the whole system. A rising tide raises all boats.

Anyway - I don’t have any research or statistics to back any of these suggestions up - hopefully Cunningham’s Law gets us a ‘real’ answer. :)