The thing that really pisses me off about you revolutionary absolutists, the core reason I don’t respect you, despise you even, isn’t because you’re smugly wrong. And you are, smugly wrong, overlooking every time revolution hasn’t worked, or worked briefly before collapsing.

The real despicable thing about you is that you know, deep down even when you don’t admit it, that revolution won’t happen without widespread, incredible suffering. Every “successful” revolution has been the result of starvation, abysmal poverty, and authoritarianism. They all lead to widespread death on both sides during the revolution itself. People don’t just overthrow the government on a lark, no matter how much they read. Misery is necessary to inspire people to revolt.

But you don’t care. You want things to get worse. You want people to suffer so much that they’re willing to do anything, that they’ll have nothing left to lose, and you’re hoping they choose your path to salvation.

Based on how much time you have to post online, you’re definitely comfortable. Intellectually you crave revolution, but materially you’ll be fine either way. You don’t care about what the proletariat, the ones who aren’t comfortable, will have to go through on your accelerationist path. As long as you get your revolution, damn the consequences for everyone else. The survivors will live in paradise, however long that lasts.

Didn’t pretend it’ll be bloodless. America quashed revolutions in other countries, they won’t hesitate to do the same at home. People will die. Many, many people. The only way the rest won’t lose their resolve is if the threat of death isn’t really worse than their living conditions. Sure, people are struggling now, but not risk-death-for-a-chance-at-change suffering. We have a long, long way to go before a critical mass of revolutionaries are desperate enough to try.

I want to show people glimpses of a better future, and bit by bit claw their way to better material conditions, alive and intact. You want their lives to get so horrific they literally have no other choice. It’s selfish and cruel. It spits in the face of the compassion for the proletariat which should be sacrosanct to the left.

Yet you sit in your leftist online spaces, elevating century old theory to religious dogma, intellectualizing the fineries of glorious revolution with no empathy for those who will suffer it. Every person who suffers on the descent into misery is righteous fuel for the revolutionary flame. Not you though, you’re comfortable, it’s all theory to you. The blood will be someone else’s blood, if you think about it at all.

This is not a plan of substance. It’s selfish and callous. And that sets aside the consequences of failure, or success followed by collapse.

I don’t respect it. It isn’t respectable. It’s cosplay blind to consequence. I want communism too, but I’m not going to push the people into misery to achieve communism for communism’s sake. The whole point is to elevate the working class, it doesn’t count if you decimate and subjugate them first.

I’m done with this. Keep cosplaying, you’re going to anyway. The grown ups will keep working on solutions that aren’t predicted on misery.

Since when has Marxism been about voting for Socialism? Marx and Marxists have always been revolutionary

Good job cropping out the very next sentence.

If they’re not going to fill in a bubble once every couple years, they sure as hell aren’t going to take to the streets in armed rebellion.

The organization isn’t there. I don’t see a fraction of the organization necessary for that. And we’ve been organizing for what, a century? How long until we’re sufficiently organized, another five centuries? 10? 100? I don’t even see a fraction of the theory literacy to so much as start the process.

Quite a huge leap there, isn’t it?

No, not really. Each of those steps follows naturally from the previous one.

There’s hundreds of years of history proving why that hasn’t worked yet

And what of the hundreds of years of history proving revolution doesn’t work. The USSR? Nice idea, turned into authoritarian state capitalism, then straight up oligarchy inside of a century. The CCP? Authoritarian state capitalism, let’s see how long until oligarchy.

I’m sure you’re about to say “That’s just because the intelligence agencies leashed by American Capital interests interfered!”, as if they’re not way more likely to interfere with an American socialist revolution.

The Proletariat has historically proven to be far more radical than you give them credit for

Starving 19-20th century peasants? Sure. 21st century Americans? Yeah they’re struggling, but they’ve got Amazon and fast food, not to mention propaganda telling them socialism will make their lives even worse. We’re not hitting revolutionary levels of desperation anytime soon. A quarter of the voters in this country voted for the poster child of the bourgeoise because they thought he was an everyman. Even more than that couldn’t be bothered to get off the couch. These are your radical revolutionaries. I’m not holding my breath.

My concern is improving the material conditions of the working class, and elevating their voice and stake in the workplace. Maybe in another century they’ll have the class consciousness to act on revolutionary theory.

That is a totally unfounded claim. I’d like for it to be true. I just know too much about the average American to believe it.

Capitalists will always keep us just comfortable enough to make revolution unsavory. Bread and circuses. Capitalist entrenchment at the time of Lenin was a pup compared to the global beast it has become in the interceding century.

The USSR devolved into state capitalism, the CCP devolved into state capitalism. Capitalism is insidious. Reform is the only way. I’m not going to pretend the musings of theory-crafters 100 years ago are sacrosanct physical laws, and if you actually want to get closer to the goal in your lifetime I suggest you consider the same.

And revolution will never happen. Seethe.

Do you know what a union is? It’s a worker coalition designed to give those workers a voice in their workplace.

Do you know what workers rights are? They’re regulatory protections that mitigate a portion of the exploitation inherent to capitalism.

Do you know what capital gains taxes are? They are taxes that siphon a portion of capital from the bourgeoise.

These are all in conflict with the interest of capital. They don’t go far enough, but they go farther than the other party. The other party opposes them. Capitalism + pro-worker social policies > capitalism - human rights. This isn’t a difficult concept.

You can link all the Marxist literature you want, it won’t get us closer to communism, or even socialism. This country will not vote for socialism anytime soon. If they’re not going to fill in a bubble once every couple years, they sure as hell aren’t going to take to the streets in armed rebellion.

These policies are the first baby steps in a larger transition. First it’s unions and higher federal minimum wage, then it’s more robust worker protections and socialized healthcare so workers have mobility, then it’s enabling worker co-ops, then it’s encouraging co-ops, then it’s mandating exclusive employee ownership. One step at a time, gradually demonstrating to the proletariat that these policies improve their lives and empower them, until they’re ready to support more dramatic change.

What’s your plan to translate to Worker supremacy over Capital?

Don’t listen to the Palestinians who correctly observe that they’re being exterminated with a democrat in charge.

I listen to both. Neither party will end this. One party will expand and accelerate it. Both things are true. That’s what they have been saying, that Biden’s policies, and by presumptive extension Kamala’s, were horrific, but Trump would be even worse. And you claim the voices saying that are a rhetorical fabrication. Erasing victims of genocide in an impossible situation pleading to mitigate the damage, because that conflicts with your Internet argument. Who is the bloodless ghoul?

I’m watching what you actually do and what happened the last 4 years when you got what you wanted.

You don’t know the first thing about what I actually do and what I want. I don’t want the Democrats. I just want MAGA even less, and no one else has 80 million votes.

You distributed aid with one hand and you voted for their extermination with the other.

I voted to keep out the greater evil, but sure. Pretend that if Biden lost and Trump was in office on Oct 8, Palestine would be better off. One thing is true, the genocide would have ended much sooner. Get out of your Internet bubble.

Probably the one that admits to their candidate’s flaws.

This is woefully ignorant of reality. People are not immune to propaganda. It’s noble that you think most people are rational and politically informed, but that’s very clearly not the case. Rhetoric has been extensively studied and developed for literally millennia, there’s a reason.

The side claiming that their side is the Messiah can only reach people who are willing to believe that narrative. It tends to be very alienating to the average voter.

80 million people voted for that.

Trump voters are all blindly devoted to their cult leader, but if we just shift a few more degrees to the right, that will win them over, somehow.

No one has suggested that. Shifting a few degrees to the right isn’t supposed to win over Trump voters, it’s supposed to win over moderate conservatives that don’t care for Trump.

the way to do that is to demand blind devotion to our candidate while screaming that the other side is Hitler and anyone who even considers them is a fascist.

What happened to caring about The Truth over all?

Those are all transitory policies between capitalism and Leftism. One party supports them, the other opposes them. It’s not enough, but it’s a better starting point.

Except for opposing cuts to social services, backing progressive taxation and capital gains tax increases, regulation of financial markets, workers rights, unions, minimum wage increases, etc.

The very same tepid institutionalism that prevents them from boldly accomplishing anything is exactly what makes them a more favorable enemy. Republicans don’t care about the institutions at all, they’ll install a Christo-fascist ethnostate the exact moment they have the opportunity.

“Support” and “damage mitigation” are two very different things.

Fuck you just making shit up to win an internet argument.

I’ve been donating directly to Palestinians distributing aid for years. I talk to them, that’s what they say. But sure, you know better.

the only fighting you want to do against them is telling people to vote for them?

Who said anything about “only”? I’m talking about setting the floor and working from there. Look at the two options on election day, and vote for the better starting point.

glad to see you come around.

I didn’t come around, that was always my view. We disagree on relative degree.

Are meager, nominal concessions enough?

Who said anything about “enough”? Again, relative degree. Meager, nominal concessions are better than Christo-fascism.

The idea that Dems put the kid gloves on when dealing with genuine threats to the status quo is woefully naiive.

I never said that. Their gloves are the same, but the Republicans are wearing brass knuckles.

I also believe in the truth, but I won’t let a fixation on it increase suffering. We’re fighting a well-oiled propaganda machine directly opposing us. If the truth doesn’t actually reach people, it doesn’t do them much good.

To be clear, nowhere did I suggest lying. I’m just advocating a little rhetorical tact. The other side isn’t fact-checking their dog in the race. They’re blatantly lying, and their supporters whistle and look the other way. When one side says their candidate is the Messiah, and the other side says their own candidate is deeply flawed, where does that push someone on the fence?

Support the easier enemy in the election, highlight their success and shut up about their flaws. After the election, switch that up and shout the truth from the rooftops.

It’s not about who deserves to win, it’s about choosing which of the two that are going to win is a more favorable enemy. When we have 80 million voters on our side, then we can start pushing the good candidate.

I didn’t do shit. The unwavering support of Israel is the natural extension of the exact same foreign policy we’ve adopted since Israel was founded. And don’t pretend it’s magically gonna get better now that Dems lost. Talk to Palestinians, they’re terrified of Trump’s bromance with Bibi.

Both parties are the enemy. Democrats are an easier to defeat enemy. Why would you want to fight the harder enemy? The odds are already stacked against the left, why make them worse?

If you can’t tell the difference between bad and worse, I can’t help you. They’re both hostile to the left, but only one is also hostile to the center.

I believe if leftists actually started showing up, and petitioned the Democrats for charge, they might get some meager nominal concessions. The Republicans not only won’t do that, they’ll double down on authoritarianism.

The very same tepid institutionalism that prevents them from boldly accomplishing anything is exactly what makes them a more favorable enemy. Republicans don’t care about the institutions at all, they’ll install a Christo-fascist ethnostate the exact moment they have the opportunity. I’d rather fight neoliberals than Christo-fascists, and I’m not sure why you wouldn’t.

But go ahead, don’t vote strategically to support an easier-to-defeat enemy. I’m sure playing on hard mode will establish socialism faster.

I didn’t say work with, I said fight.

Very false. They both represent capital yes, but one is objectively more opposed to leftist policy than the other. Republicans are more anti-Union, more against single payer healthcare, etc.

Voting isn’t about choosing who best represents you, that person isn’t going to win. Voting is about choosing who you’re going to be fighting for the next 4 years. I’d rather push left against the Democrats than the Republicans.

Again, you put me in a room with democratic leadership and I’ll scream their flaws in their face. But this isn’t a room of democratic leadership. How exactly does screaming about the flaws of the DNC to the voters accomplish anything?

It’s in the best interest of the DNC to adopt policies and campaign approaches that have the best chance of winning. It’s in the best interest of leftist voters to keep fascists out of office.

I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m saying that yelling about it here is not only ineffective, it’s counterproductive. I’m not DNC leadership, and I’d wager good money that no one else on this site is DNC leadership. So yelling about their flaws here doesn’t communicate with them, all it does is discourage the voters that are here from big tenting against the fascists.

But clearly the right play is to learn nothing from this, and continue to fracture the left and foement apathy in leftist voters. That’s been working great so far, right?

Just because it wasn’t successful doesn’t mean it wasn’t the rational choice. It’s very possible that she would have done worse if she hadn’t courted conservatives, and possible she would have done even worse than that if she’d gone full tilt toward progressives. Hindsight is easy.

Liz Cheney represents conservatives who don’t want to vote for Trump. That demographic represents more votes than leftists. That’s what happens when you play hard to get too hard, the person you’re after gives up and goes after someone else.